The inaugural Summit Series last winter featured six monthly conference calls, each with two or three advisers sharing their experiences on a predetermined leadership topic with the group of mentees, all facilitated by Paul Thallner of High Peaks Group. The mentees would then complete related exercises with the guidance of Dr. Natalie Ooi, director of Colorado State University’s graduate Ski Area Management Program. The content of the calls and some of the work done by the mentees was shared here in the pages of SAM, online at saminfo.com, and was the inspiration for launching PodSAM, our growing podcast channel.

This time around, we’ve enhanced the leadership development aspects of the program, to help us deliver even more useful content to the SAM audience.

The format of each Summit Series call remains similar, but this time you’ll hear from the mentees a bit more. Also, each mentee will have a monthly one-on-one call with a mentor during the winter, so each mentee can pick his/her mentor’s brain. Additional deep-dive exercises with Dr. Ooi will add to the takeaways and learning. All of this is aimed at contributing to the development of the mountain resort industry’s next generation of leaders.

Here is the complete transcript of the call about communication skills, lightly edited for clarity.

Olivia Rowan: I'm going to introduce a few people who are instrumental to making this all happen, and first would be a thank you to our sponsors, Leitner-Poma and MountainGuard.

Darren Cole from Leitner Poma is a new sponsor this year and we are welcoming back MountainGuard and Tim Barnhorst.

Tim Barnhorst (MountainGuard): I want to thank everybody for joining. I know we're in the couple days right before Thanksgiving. A lot of people are just opening, or opening this week, and we really appreciate your time that you guys are devoting to this all season long because it's important for our industry.

We certainly see it in our own organization with succession planning. It's something that we need to do as an industry. I'm really excited to be back for season two of the Summit Series, and we couldn't be happier with the results from season one. So, thank you to everybody from the sponsors, mentors, mentees, and everyone at SAM for putting this together. We're honored to be a part of this.

Olivia: Great, thank you so much Tim. And we couldn't do it without your support, so thank you. And another key partner is Dr. Natalie Ooi from Colorado State University.

Colorado State University’s Graduate Certificate in Ski Area Management and Natalie, the SKAMP program director, provide the resources and the deep dive activity on each topic. She provides follow ups and comments on all the assignments after each call, which is such an important piece of the program.

And, of course, the glue to our program, Paul Thallner, founder of High Peaks Group. He facilitates these discussions and creates the outline for each topic. High Peaks Group provides leadership training and consulting to help companies cultivate effective teams and create high-performing company cultures. He is also the senior program advisor at Camber Outdoors, formally the Outdoor Industry Women's Coalition. Their goal is to improve diversity in leadership in the outdoor industry.

And SAM’s own Sarah Borodaeff, who keeps us all organized and keeps this program running smoothly. Her passion around this topic has been a driving force. So, a big thank you to these key people.

With that, I'd like to welcome our mentees:

Parker Gokey, Terrain Park Manager/Lift Supervisor, Mt. Ashland, Ore.
Rick Herlihy, Revenue Manager, Snowshoe, W.Va.
Tess Hobbs, Assistant Director of Marketing, Snowbird, Utah
Eric Kertzman, Sales Manager, Diamond Peak, Nev.
Christina Mattson, Programming, Events, and Partnerships Director, Suicide Six, Vt.
Colin Russell, Claims Manager, Vail Resorts
Hunter Steinkamp, Snowsports Sales Manager, Crystal Mountain, Mich.
Greg Valerio, Bike Park and Mountain Sports Shop Manager, Windham Mountain, N.Y.
Katie White, Children’s Specialist Snowsports Supervisor, Yellowstone Club, Mont.
Meghan Wilcock, Marketing Manager, Mount Snow, Vt.

And our mentors on this call who will be guiding our discussion on all things communication will be:

Jay Scambio, President/General Manager, Loon, N.H.
Steve Wright, President/General Manager, Jay Peak, Vt.
And Kelly Pawlak, President, National Ski Areas Association, who is serving as a guest mentor on this call.

And with that, I’ll hand it off to Paul.

Paul Thallner: Thanks so much Olivia. I really appreciate the opportunity to facilitate this conversation about communication today.

Anyone who's been part of an organization knows communication is very important to ensuring that everything gets done in a way that it needs to in order for the business to succeed and thrive. Also, for people to feel like they're making a contribution and that their time is well spent. So today we're going to talk a little bit about what makes for effective communication and why it's important. I'm going to be asking the mentors about their experience, doing it right and doing it not so right in the past.

I think that communication is an important topic for any business. During this conversation we'll try to tease out a little bit of the details, and when challenges are actually about communication and when they're not. Sometimes, communication gets a bad rap and it gets blamed for things that might not be the actual problem.

We typically start by asking about your experience, mentors. So, I'd love to start with our pinch hitter, Kelly. Kelly, first of all, thank you for jumping in. Could you reflect a little bit for us about your communication style and what you learned along the way? Maybe share a story about how you came to develop the communication style that you have right now.

Kelly Pawlak: I think that communication styles are really important, and when you go to meet with somebody, you really need to know what their style is, and you need to adjust to their style. Figure out what motivates that person. My rule of thumb is to prepare ahead and don't go in blind.

For instance, if you're going to meet with somebody, let's say from finance, or maybe research who you know is really driven by logic, you're going to have to give them more time. You're going to have to let them do some fact finding, and even if you're a doer, which that's kind of my style, I have to slow down and make sure that I'm respecting that person and their style.

But, let's say I am meeting with somebody who likes to get things done, which tends to be a lot of people that we do meet in the ski industry. On that side, I'm going to go in with all my ducks in a row. I'm going to have everything researched. I'm going to keep it to the point. I'm going to provide them lots of options and let them make the decisions because I know that's what they like to do. So that's kind of how I approach the whole behavior style part of communication.

Paul: Do you use the same strategy if you yourself were communicating out to a larger audience, like your members or other constituent groups?

Kelly: It depends. If I have the opportunity to prepare for, let's say, Professional Ski Instructors of America, I'm going to do my homework and I'm going to try to make sure that I take my message and tailor it to that. But overall, when I'm public speaking, I think that brevity is really important. And you need to be clear and succinct in your messages. Though that doesn't mean that there aren't times when you're going to have to go into detail.

I also believe that layman's terms, putting things into a user-friendly term for either your customer or whomever you're speaking to, is important. Know your audience and don't go too technical with terms of fancy words.

I especially think this is important in talking to our staff, who are customer facing. Drop the insider lingo. It's just not fair to our guests when we're using lots of acronyms. For instance, MBL is Main Base Lodge, so say Main Base Lodge. Or instead of saying Lift 11 in your snow report, say North Point Quad. I find that when you take it down a notch, just put things into terms that are really user friendly, there's more interaction and less people falling asleep.

And don't be afraid to try it out on somebody before you go out and speak in front of public, because they'll point out what things you're rushing through or you didn't explain quite well.

Paul: Jay I'd love to hear a story about how you developed your communication style.

Jay Scambio: I'll be honest in saying that I'm still developing it. I think that communication is something that you're constantly working on. And in developing it you look back and you think about the things you've been doing and how the interaction with that particular team member— or a vendor, or stakeholder, or community representative—actually went. You have to digest it and learn from the experience if did not go well.

Using laymen’s terms—I am big on that. It may be a character flaw, but I'm not a big technical-word type person. I like to keep it simple in communicating with people. I think it helps get the message across a little easier, at least most of the time.

You know, working on it to me, it's a constant project, asking, “How well did that message get through?” I think when it comes to communication, one of the worst things I think you can hear as a leader is, “nobody ever told me that.”

And it makes you want to pull your hair out sometimes when you hear those things. So, for us, for me, communication is a huge part, probably the biggest part of our whole operation and how we function on a daily basis. And if somebody is missing the knowledge that they need to do their job, or to communicate to our guests, that's a big failure right there.

Paul: You talked about constantly working on it. I think we're all works in progress. For you, what does working on it look like?

Jay: I think I like to look at my relationships with our team here and how that relationship works. Communication is a big portion of that. I prefer verbal communication, not so much email communication or text, but actually sitting down and having a conversation with people.

It's a mental note of how well did the message that I was trying to get to whichever division it could be, marketing or operations, who knows, how well did that message get through, and then how successful were they in completing the task, project, or pushing the message further down the line.

Paul: Steve, thanks for batting cleanup here for us. Could you give us story on how you developed your communication style?

Steve Wright: It’s obviously a process, and at some point, you become conscious of the process and you start to work on it. I think, for me, it connects back to believing that ultimately people want to be heard. Whether they are employees of yours, people that you communicate up to laterally, stakeholders, like Jay said.

People want to be listened to. They want to be acknowledged. While I think good communication is certainly a two-way street as a leader, you as that leader need to own more than 50 percent of that two-way street because you need to get your messages to connect and ultimately have impact.

A conversation is two ways. For me, I like people. I like working with them, working for them, managing them. Using that as my foundation, I've always looked for ways to improve the ways I communicate and have impact on folks. I don't know that I can put a word to [my communication style] necessarily. But I guess you can coach, you can teach, and ultimately, if time isn't an issue, you can coach and provide a foundation for the employee. But essentially, it's their responsibility to sort of direct the plan of action, you're not doing it for them. If time ends up being an issue, then you can adopt a teaching style that lays out the steps to follow, and then explain why it benefits them.

In an industry where there's a lot of time-critical related things that we do, you get into sort of a directing style. I think that ultimately a good communicator will provide a framework and not orders. But you get into situations where you have to direct, and where time is of the essence you have to sort of adopt that style. But for me I feel like I'm constantly slipping between different styles depending upon the situation, and really depending upon the audience.

Paul: Put yourself back earlier in your career, when you were maybe at a stage where our current mentees are. Maybe you were given the opportunity to communicate something, either broadly, or to a team, and it didn't go so well, and the learned a lesson as a result of that.

Could you share one of those experiences with us?

Kelly: Sure, and I continue to make these mistakes, especially that I've now transitioned from the resort leadership role to now working at a trade association. So, everything is new, and I continue to make some of the same communication blunders.

But my story goes back to Jay's point of nobody ever told me that, and that's where I think over-communication is important. Knowing those times when that approach is necessary, especially when you're launching something new or something new in mountain operations, I feel like that’s a time to take a step back, overcommunicate, come up with a plan of how you're going to tackle the job, especially with a plan for safety. Because if it's new, you may have to think about new ways to get around safely.

So, this particular situation was when I was back at Mount Snow, and I had ordered, I think, 700 chairs for the Main Base Lodge. And they were coming the Tuesday before MLK weekend. So we started getting rid of all the old chairs. We donated them to the community and some had to go in the dumpster. By the time that Tuesday rolled around, we were ready for the truckloads of chairs to come. I had a team assembled and we were going to put them together and have them in place by Friday night for the big holiday weekend. Of course, they didn’t arrive on Tuesday, and then we couldn’t find them.

The chairs actually arrived on Friday and we had this group of people assembled—ski school, patrol, you name it, everybody was there to help. What we didn’t think about, and what I didn’t think about, since I was running around like a crazy lady ordering pizzas for the crew and everything, was actually stopping and having a training session.

So now everybody is taking the chair parts out of the truck in different ways and assembling them. And while we eventually got through it, it was probably 10 at night, the next morning I came in and all of our guests were falling off the chairs. Since we never took the time to explain how to assemble them, more than half of the seats were put on the wrong way so they were slanted down. That's something simple that just goes back to “nobody ever told me how to do it,” and they were absolutely right. We just said “get it done,” instead of, “Hold on, we're going to take five minutes and figure out how to put this together.”

Jay: That was great.

Kelly: I think when I left Mount Snow, I was still finding a few of those chairs that were put on backwards.

Paul: Jay, can you top that one? That was pretty awesome.

Jay: Well, I'm sitting here chuckling because we have a small cafeteria project going on right now, that we are replacing old 1980s seat cushions with new cushions. And I wrote a note to talk to the food and beverage manager, and make sure we're doing things properly. Well, you asked me to think of an example, and I got so caught up in listening to Kelly's story that I didn't think too much about it, but I can think of a couple instances. One, it speaks to the email thing I touched on briefly before.

In my previous role when I was working for all the Boyne Resorts properties, we were looking for a terrain park manager at one of the resorts. Time was of the essence because they're a hot commodity these days. But it was summertime, people are on vacation, coming back from vacation, somebody else goes on vacation. And eventually I was kind of like, “Geez, how are we going to get this done?” I was cc’ed on emails to somebody I knew was on vacation and figured, well, it's not to me but I'll send a message.

So I send a message back to this HR person saying no, we don't want to do what she was thinking, we want to do something else. It was a perfect example of communication where you really should just pick up the phone and talk to that person to make sure they understand what you’re saying, versus how it was taken, which was firm with big capital letters and an explanation point “NO, YOU CAN’T DO THIS!” It was taken out of context.

To me, the method or the medium with which you're communicating with people is just as important [as your communication style]. And that situation there taught me a ton about how an email could be really quick and easy, especially in my previous job where I was on airplanes half the time, but a phone call is more important in situations where you want to make sure that the message is heard properly.

Paul: There is loads of research and literature about effective and ineffective communication by email. And oftentimes that can be a trap for many because things aren't quite received the way you intend to deliver them.

Jay: Yeah, and a lot of times, too, it's about the message that you're sending. Making sure that you're not making assumptions about what people think, or what people know. And really taking the time to get the message across to them properly, with all the information.

Paul: Absolutely. Thank you for saying that, Jay. Steve, can you share a story about when communication didn't go so great for you?

Steve: The first in a long line of communication disasters for me started—and Kelly was at Mount Snow at the time—when I was working at Killington for [American Skiing Company] and within the same week Sonny Bono and Michael Kennedy both died on ski slopes.

At the time, Heavenly was owned by American Skiing Company and I was involved with PR and communications at Killington, doing some triage work for ASC communications at that point. I don't remember anything specific, except I was on the phone with a member of the press and I didn't really have my story together to the extent that I probably should have. I took too lightly the notion that the press would take whatever I said and turn it into story fodder. And I did sort of put some bad information out there that got into some regional papers.

I take a step back and I look at that now, to play off what Kelly had talked about initially—the notion of preparing and knowing your audience before you put yourself in a situation where you're going to misspeak. Had I done that I certainly would have come about things a different way. That notion of separation before you talk to anybody, not just a member of the press, but if it's a member of your team, somebody that you work with, or somebody that you report up to—for me it emphasizes the need get my shit together before I go and have a conversation with anyone.

Paul: Yeah, that is so true. It's interesting—the topic of communications has already, on this call, spanned out to include so many things. I think that communication could be someone’s life work or PhD thesis. From press relations, media relations, all the way to talking to your teams, communicating through email, and all these things that are really important because you know there are some universal truths that we can all learn from along the way.

Thank you, all of you, for sharing and being open to talking about those moments that didn't quite go as you had hoped or planned. That, in itself, is a sign of leadership. Before we take the questions from our mentees, I would love to just ask Kelly a quick question, if you don't mind.

Half the mentees are women. Kelly, I'd love to hear a little bit from you about what you've learned a long way about communicating as a female leader in a male dominated industry.

Kelly: Hmm, wow. Well, luckily, most of the time I don't think of it that way. I go back to the behavior styles and I really try to pinpoint what makes this person tick that’s in front of me and how am I going to get through or share what I'm trying to share. But there are times when you definitely feel like, “Well, to him I'm just a girl.” And that's tough. Sometimes you just need to let it go, and just let them do their thing because you can tell that there's no getting through. And so I try to get to the end result in a different way.

It’s such a tough one. I guess the only advice I can give right off the cuff without really thinking it through is that for many, many years, I didn't think my voice was good enough. And when I started believing in myself and what I had to say—and that doesn't mean that I just talked and talked and talked, because learning to listen is something I am still working on as a professional goal—but when I did decide to have confidence in myself and say what was on my mind, people would tell me that they appreciated me being candid. So be yourself. I wish I had done that a little earlier in my career.

Paul: Thank you so much Kelly. Thanks for rolling with that one. So, let's turn it over to the mentees not for the question that you've thought of ahead of time, starting with Eric Kertzman.

Eric Kertzman: As leaders of the industry and your respective resorts, in your experience, what methods of communication have led to greater accountability, and therefore execution, especially when attempting to reach a wide variety of departments?

Jay: Well that's a great question. In the middle of the winter we have 900 employees here and I would consider Loon a smaller sized resort in the grand scheme of things. Being able to communicate with the entire group and all of the divisions that we have is a daunting task for anybody. Some of the best ways to look at it is starting small with your team.

Everybody, at least here at Loon, we try to limit manager’s direct reports to six to ten people and really focus on driving the message from the office here. That message is also a byproduct of me and our senior team getting together and talking through our challenges, our goals, and projects. So, the senior team fleshes that all out, but then we push the message from myself and my team to our division, and to those department managers within those divisions to help get the word out.

Now are you asking, is it best served as email communications or face-to-face meetings? I think that goes back to the idea that everybody's a little different. And every leader that we have at the resort communicates and takes in information in a different manner. And really, our division leads, our senior team, they know how their people work, so we really try to leave it to them to do their thing.

There are some great tools nowadays to getting messages out there. Email is one, but as I mentioned in my story, it can also be problematic. App-driven services for emergency or critical communication or information sharing are important ones too. I think it comes down to identifying what type of message it is and what the importance of it is, whether it's an emergency or safety/health topic, or if it's just a communication about what our offerings are for Black Friday, that stuff is handled differently, I think.

So, you have to take all that into consideration before you push it out there. But when you are ready to push it out there, make sure that all the facts are together. Make sure that all the people, all the stakeholders involved have given you the information that you need in order to make sure the message is completely accurate before it gets to everybody.

Steve: For me, all of this boils down to building and strengthening relationships with your team. And that's where, for us, and for me, historically, everything starts there. You want to be listened to, and then be willing to hear what your staff has to say and understand what it is they're concerned about.

I think in our industry, it's very easy to pigeonhole different departments into different communication styles. Vehicle maintenance and mountain ops, for instance, they want just the facts. They don't want to bullshit around, they're old timers, they've been there a long time, they just want the facts, quick in and out. And the reality is, those departments are the ones that it's most important to build those relationships with because, historically, no one spends the time to do that.

We've made more strides here in actually having and building relationships with those departments that have done more for us than almost anything. I think if I could give one piece of advice, it would be to invest in building relationships with your team and with your staff and with your peers and continue to invest energy and emotion into that. And I think good communication ends up being a byproduct of it.

Hunter Steinkamp: Many times, leaders have to make decisions that leave various parties unhappy, which often results in negative PR. What are some examples you've had working with this and how have you solved the logic behind your decisions to broad audiences?

Kelly: Wow, that's a good one, Hunter. Well, I'll start with boilerplate, and hopefully then I'll think of an example to add in. So, when there's sensitive stuff, usually there's a statement involved, there's a press release involved, there may be a meeting with the staff—it all depends on the situation. But I like to get a second and a third set of eyes on whatever goes out. I like to have someone who understands the content, the bigger picture, who can say, “You know, Kelly, you really need to talk about this.” And I also like to have somebody who has really good grammar and editing skills to make sure it goes out clean.

I like to then think about the stakeholders. And maybe you have an owner, some corporate review that needs to take place, legal review. Maybe you're on public lands and there's Forest Service review or other stakeholders like an HOA. Maybe it's a supplier because you have a sensitive lift situation. I like to get their eyes on it.

And then my three-prong approach is: Hit the button for staff. Make sure they know first because the most embarrassing thing is when a staff member hears about it from the public. Then give it a little time and hit the button on community, and that community may be your pass holders, it may be the actual region you live in—you have to decide that. And then hit the button on public. That seemed to work well at Mount Snow.

Paul: Steve, I'm wondering if you could chime in as well? Talk about making decisions that leave people a little bit unhappy, and potentially reflecting poorly on the resort. Do you have any examples you can share with that?

Steve: Shit, there are lots of things. Let’s bring out the damn receivership again, why don't we? The first thing that happened is the receiver sort of took charge. He wasn't used to stepping into an asset that was still viable. He was used to coming into businesses that when they went into receivership they were out of business. So they weren't an ongoing concern, so to speak.

He spoke very freely to the press. The press then took it and ran with it. The staff ended up hearing about those things in the news. The staff was obviously concerned, freaked out, and panicked.

So then we had to take a step back. From a communication perspective, it was me talking to the receiver saying, okay, here's how we need to do this.

First and foremost, we need to stop airing this stuff out in the press and we need to prepare ourselves a little bit with a strategy on how we're going to go out to the press. And then maybe if we could, sir, funnel everything through me, so I can parse that with the staff before the press hears it.

And then, I started to create enough of a relationship with him where I could parse what was real versus what probably wasn't going to happen immediately and was further down the road. So, I could make a decision for what to take to the staff or what to keep back.

That was sort of a communication boot camp in terms of not only how to get yourself through a crisis, but also managing up and getting what you need from somebody that technically you reported to in order for you to make the communication decisions after that.

Paul: So, we have one more question. I want to throw it to Katie, who has a good question, and it's for everyone.

Katie White: As a recipient, I value a direct form of communication when someone is communicating with me about my performance. And I found that many other people feel the same way. One thing that I've also found is that, as a supervisor, I struggle being direct with people, especially when it comes to a sensitive situation. How do you deliver a direct communication while still remaining empathetic and considerate of the person's feelings?

Kelly: Katie, that is such an awesome question. It's actually one of my pet peeves when it comes to communication. It's one of those things that I wish we taught kids in school, because I struggle with the exact same problem. And so many people I've worked with have struggled with that problem. And that's one of the other things that I'm working on, is giving timely, honest, and constructive feedback.

It goes back to being prepared and going in knowing exactly what it is that you need to get across and not attacking the person. In an education seminar I went to, they did an example where, let's say that somebody is constantly late for a meeting. It's not attacking the person by letting them know how it makes you feel and saying, “When you show up to the meeting late, it makes me frustrated because sometimes I have to repeat stuff and other people are making it there on time. So, I feel like your kind of cheating them out [of their time].”

So, that's the way that I try to do it. Never attack the person and always tell them how it makes you feel, and exactly what that thing is that you want them to change that is the problem.

Jay: I agree with Kelly. Communicate with the person how it makes you feel, and what the implications are on the rest of the team. You would hope that the person would understand and have some sort of empathy, not only to your feelings, but then maybe even more so if they are part of your team.

I also struggle with some of the direct communication. So, the big pieces of it are being prepared. It's okay to be nervous about it, especially if it's a really hot subject that you just need to sit down and talk with somebody about. Know that they're going to be nervous, too.

It's going to be uncomfortable, but it's almost always better afterwards if there has been open and honest communication, and you've been a good listener just as well as communicating to get your point across.

Steve: I mean, nobody is good at this. You've got the president of NSAA saying that she's not good at it. Believe me, nobody is going to raise their hand and say, “Boy, I'll tell you what? I'm great at sensitive conversations. I love those.” At the end of the day, your ability to be honest and transparent with whoever you're speaking with is going to be directly connected to the likelihood that that person is going to change.

And when you have a relationship with your staff, you honestly want them to improve, not only for themselves but also for the department. You want to give them every ability to improve, and that's connected to your ability to be transparent. So just know that when you put yourself in a situation where you're having a difficult, sensitive conversation, if you can be honest and if you can be open and transparent, the conversation ultimately is going to help the other person.

Paul: We have time for one more quick one. Putting yourself back in time to when you were earlier in your career, what is one piece of advice that you would want to share with our mentees today? You shared many pieces of advice already, but one thing you'd like to be sure they leave with, that they can take with them after this call's over

Steve: Everybody has talked about listening. For me, everything starts there. We talked about relationship building. The quickest way to do that—to strengthen the relationships with the people you work with, and the staff that you manage, and the people that you report up to—is to listen to them and let them know that what they're saying is worth listening to.

People love to hear themselves talk, and they love to get their positions out. There aren’t a lot of people out there who really invest the time in becoming good listeners, so if you can figure out a way to get yourself engaged with that, improving your listening, I think it goes a long way.

Jay: Follow the Golden Rule. It sounds a little cliché, but we hold that pretty high around here. You want to speak to everyone in the manner you want to be spoken to. You want to be heard just as much as others want to be heard. So if you have a message to communicate to people, you want to do it in a respectful way that anybody can understand and, in the end, can help them get their job done.

So, I think it's important to always be respectful. Think about the team. We spoke about difficult conversations a minute ago. When you get into those difficult conversations, don't take it too personal. A little bit might be okay, but people will see when they get under your skin and you have to be sensitive to that.

Kelly: And one of mine would be confidentiality, really working on keeping it to yourself. It's paramount when you start managing people. You need to understand that you cannot be part of this gossip chain. I learned this one the hard way.

There will be times where you need to talk through a situation, so you have to find that group of people you can trust. But if a person leaks, now you can’t trust them with confidential information. It doesn't mean they're not an important member of your team and that they're not doing great things, but that confidence level, it's really, really important.

And the same is true with social media. The minute you start managing people and you reach that next level where you're a leader, every post is communicating to the rest of the world your position. Whether it be on the food you're eating or the ski area. So, it becomes a really important time in your career that you have to make the shift. And once you make the shift, it becomes easy, but making the shift is difficult.

Paul: That's great. Thank you so much Kelly, Jay, Steve. It's been a pleasure.